Frank Nweke Jr is the Minister for Information and National Orientation. In this interview with Deputy Managing Editor Funke Egbemode, Nweke speaks on the strained relationship between President Olusegun Obasanjo and Vice President Atiku Abubakar and the implications of the face-off on the quality of governance, among other issues. Excerpts;



How would you react to the face-off between the President and his deputy, and what do you think would be the implications on the quality of governance?
Well I have had cause to comment on this issue, and in commenting on it, I was responding to what appears to be public concern that government business has been affected as a result of what appears to be a strained relationship between the President and the Vice President. And I disagree for a number of reasons which included the fact that government institutions have continued to function at the optimum, commerce is thriving and economy is growing at a very unprecedented rate, and I reason that you might also look it simply as part of the evolutionary process of democracy in our country, and I believe that this kind of things can only serve to strengthen our democracy and institutions and help us entrench our democratic values.

You don’t think the mudslinging is embarrassing…(cuts in)
As far as I’m concerned, it can only strengthen democracy and democratic institutions in our country. What it means is that two people can differ on issues, so long the argument has been in a decorous manner. You can also see that this is not peculiar to Nigeria alone. Of course, I’m not saying that Nigeria should be a reference point for this kind of problem, but what about South Africa, what about Britain and what about the U.S.? These are other countries where you can see this kind of strained relationship between may be the Prime Minister and his potential successor or between the President and his Vice and of course you see the same thing in South Africa. So it is nothing peculiar, though it is not a very comfortable situation; it is not a good situation in which you find yourself especially within government circle. But unfortunately that is what exists, and the disagreement is clearly based on principle and I doubt there is much to do at this point in time.

What happens for instance between Zuma and Thambo Mbeki did not have anything to do with money. But Nigerians are witnessing a face-off between the President and his deputy over money.
It is not about money. A very clear case was established by the EFCC working with FBI and an administrative panel, and subsequently the President looked at their reports and took a position. If Mr. President has anything to hide he could have easily swept that report under the carpet, but Mr. President had to take a principled position on the matter and that is why he took the most appropriate action by forwarding it (the report) to the National Assembly. So very clearly, the matter, to my mind, is very straightforward. Of course there has been an effort to rake mud and all of that but resilient Nigerians are not deceived. They are not confused and this is where again I will like to pay my deep respect to the Nigerian media, one of the most robust in the world and to commend them once more as I have done in the past for the principled stand and the objective way they have gone about covering the events associated with this problem and I urge them to remain in the forefront of trying to protect our national interest by educating the Nigerian people of the true state of affairs and in this particular matter, it is about a visionary president, it is about a statesman, it is about somebody deeply committed to the growth of our country, it about a president who is determined to change the way we do things in this country as a prerequisite for us to move to the next level, it about a president who is determined to fight and battle corruption to a standstill, and again who has succeeded in a way no other administration has succeeded in our country in tackling corruption.

Meanings are being read into the latest onslaught on the Vice President as people keep asking why is the President just doing this or why is the EFCC just investigating the man, another way of saying it is all about stopping Atiku’s presidential ambition?
Well I doubt that even Mr. President can single-handedly determine who his successor would be. I believe it is the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) of which the President is a leader; it is the electorate that will determine who his successor would be. Mr. President is a democrat, and he fully recognises this. So I don’t quite agree with that line of reasoning. I stated it earlier that it is about principle, it is about commitment to changing the way things are done in Nigeria, it is about fighting corruption, it is about the future of our country. That is how it is and this is the true state of affairs. So any attempt to allude to somebody not wanting somebody to succeed him is just pedestrian views and excuses that cannot survive the test of time. I believe that discerning people would have a better understanding of the report of the EFCC and of course the administrative panel in which the Vice President was indicted.

Just about the time the Senate pledged to look independently into the PTDF Account, the EFCC chairman dropped another bombshell saying that another governor was indicted, what impact could that have with just few months to the election?
Of course the chairman of the EFCC made that statement yesterday when he addressed the Joint National Assembly but of course the President, just about an hour ago, made some statements in reaction to the statement credited to the chairman of the EFCC and in doing so, the President was taking cognisance of the fact that an accused person under our law is assumed innocent until he’s proven guilty. He was mindful of the fact that the EFCC is yet to take the outcome of its investigations to court and that it is only a properly constituted court that can look into this matter and ultimately uphold the investigations and then indict and convict the public officials whose names are associated with the kind of sleaze that the EFCC alluded to or discharge. To my mind the EFCC has done a great job in trying to at least tackle the brigandage in our polity, to dismantle the culture of impunity in the conduct of public business and public officials, and every well-meaning Nigerians should commend and support them. And I do not believe that the EFCC should abdicate its responsibility simply because the election is around the corner. I don’t share that sentiment; they have to continue their job till the end.

If over 31 governors are allegedly corrupt, have been indicted and are to answer charges of such, how do you think this would augur well for smooth transition programme due next year?
I believe that my responses to questions earlier still suffice here. Mr. President has expressed his deep commitment to ensuring a smooth transition, and there is nothing to my mind, which will undermine that commitment. Of course the matters like I said earlier would still have to go to court and it is only the court that can pronounce anybody guilty or not guilty. But the EFCC, I know the way they operate, will do everything necessary to ensure that the cases are settled. But definitely I don’t see anyhow by which the statement the chairman made yesterday will scuttle a smooth transition.

Considering the way our legal system works, should it prosecute just 15 governors outside the 31 others that are under inconclusive probe? Don’t you think that would hold up those who can say they want to go and pick a ticket, and can people under probe go and contest?

Under our legal system I repeat the accused is presumed innocent until he is proven guilty. I don’t think it will be different in this case. I don’t think so.

So what happens if a governor picks a ticket while is still under probe and is found guilty? If election has been conducted then our constitution will take its course on matters relating to such convictions, and where that is not the case, of course the person’s election is sustained. It is very simple.

With the number of people who have printed posters and number of those who have been indicted, do we still have reasons to believe that the EFCC’s pronouncement is going to affect a lot of things?


How do you mean?

A lot of people want to contest for office and suddenly they have to answer questions, and while they answer these questions we are moving close to conventions, to primaries and main election, so how would that not affect the whole thing?
Unfortunately, what I said to you earlier is that according to our legal system, an accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty by a competent court, and I know that the EFCC has effected some convictions in the past and I am a keen follower of the activities and I am very proud of my brother Ribadu, he is one of members of my generation that I am extremely proud of. And I know that his commission would do everything necessary to ensure that the cases are carried out in judicious manner and in public interest.

This also leads to me thinking that there could be a kind of wielding, like a wielding of the whole guard particularly as the President vows not to allow some people hold public office in 2007?
Well I don’t think it is right to say the president is dictating. I repeat, Mr. President is a democrat, Mr. President under our Constitution has one vote. It is the party, the PDP which he belongs to, that will have to nominate candidates and it is the electorate that will elect those candidates. Even if that were his ambition, I doubt that he’s able to realise it. But I do know that he’s interested in ensuring that only patriotic and visionary Nigerians who have strong commitment to welfare of our people and our country that he will like to see emerge in the leadership position in the country. But it is obvious that Mr. President as much as I do knows it is the electorate that will have to decide the fate of people who come forward, the fate of people who are going to be nominated by the ruling party and indeed those nominated by other parties too in the long run.

You have watched closely the running of the country, how would you describe the kind of leadership we have in place now, I mean those that have been there from 1999 till date?

I believe that there are leaders for every season, at any point in the history of any country, any institution. There are leaders who are suited to their seasons. I want to believe that those we have across the breadth and length of our country today are leaders of a season, which is from 1999 till date. And I believe that by the next season Nigeria, by the special grace of God, will also get the kind of leadership that it truly deserves.

What kind of leadership do you think we deserve?
We need leaders who are going to be courageous, patriotic, God-fearing visionary and exemplary. We need leadership that will have a very strong commitment to the well-being and welfare of our people. We need a leadership that will continue on the path of the changes that have been introduced in the various areas of our national life. Those are the kind of leadership that we need in the new season that we are about to enter.

And how would you describe the politicians now?
When I’m asked to describe the kind of leaders that we need, let me say we need a new season.

And if those kind of people don’t want to come into public office, where do we get them?

There is no condition that is permanent in the world, and I believe that part of the changes that Mr. President has been trying to implement is to encourage people to take more interest in what is happening in our own country socially, economically and politically. That is why he has brought in the private sector to take over the economy, that is why he is trying to implement some kind of political reforms, that is why he is trying to reform his own party, that is he is trying to nurture young leadership. And I believe that God blesses our country and I know that in my mind that we will get the right quality of leadership in the new season that we are about to enter.

So how would you describe Mr. President and the kind of things he has done between 1999 and now, and the kind of leadership he would like to have in place?

I have often described Mr. President as the father of modern Nigeria. During the last Stakeholders Forum on Youth Matters, I described him as the father of modern Nigeria. He is to Nigerians what Margaret Thatcher was to Britain in the 80s and what Yu was to Singapore. With respect to spell out the achievements of his administration, I can say that this has been transformational. It is unprecedented in our history. He is a man of history. Just as he presided over the most massive structural development of black Africa when he was military head of state between 76 and 79, under the last seven years, he has carried out one of the most massive socio-economic reforms in the history of our country. He is a man of history and a man of destiny. He is an embodiment of anything that is Nigeria. He is a man who we should be very, very proud of.

Some Nigerians don’t describe him exactly the same way you have, do you think they misunderstood him or there’s something missing along the line or something they couldn’t get across to Nigerians? A lot of Nigerians would say under this administration they have suffered, they have gone through a lot of pains and did not get something they wanted done. Do they misunderstand the President or what?
Well, man by nature chooses the path of least resistance, man by nature does not like to obey laws, man by nature does not want change, and man does not like to leave his comfort zone. And so the reaction you have just said, if it is true, then you say that the situation in Nigeria is not any different. Margaret Thatcher presided over the transformation of the British economy in the 80s, you can say that it is everything she did while in office that the Labour Party has been building upon, even the Conservatives have been building upon. Yet she lost her office, she is the most favoured British Prime Minister in history. But the facts are there and today she is celebrated. People acknowledged her ambition and courage. The same thing could be said even now, even though I do not agree with you that Nigerians do not appreciate the President. I believe that operators in the financial sector would take you up on that. I’m sure operators of the GSM telephoning system would take you up on that, Nigerians would also take you up on that, operators in the downstream sector will take you up on that, people who have benefited from the saving at the exit out of our debt will take you up on that, and people who are going to benefit from the ongoing modernisation of the railways would take you up on that. I think so many people would take you up if you were to say that publicly. I am not saying, of course, that everything is perfect in our country or under this administration, what I’m saying in essence is that substantive progress has been made and it is easy to understand when you benchmark it against where we are coming from. Unless you do so you won’t appreciate. Families who lost their lives as a result of adulterated kerosene and its explosion in years gone by would take you up if you say no progress has been made. People who had to queue up for petrol before and even up till 1999 will take you up if you say no progress has been made. Substantial progress has been made and I believe that every Nigerian should be proud of the kind transformation that has taken place in our country since the advent of democracy and administration of President Obasanjo.

Don’t you think the EFCC is biting more than it can chew at a time like this?

I have absolute confidence in the leadership of the EFCC. My brother and my friend (Ribadu) is highly motivated, highly driven, is a thorough person and I have no doubt that he is in full control of the commission and that he and his colleagues are committed to sanitise our polity within the mandate given them under the EFCC Act.

Do you see EFCC remain beyond 2007?

It will be in our interest for the EFCC to remain as an institution beyond 2007.

Yes it could be in our interest, but do you see the next dispensation accommodating a man like him?

Yes, the EFCC was established by law and I have no doubt in my mind that as long as that law is in place the EFCC would continue to exist to do the job for which it was established to do.

Nigeria was 46 years few days ago, do we have anything to celebrate?

We should celebrate the gift of life, that we are alive to see another October 1, our 46th Independence Anniversary. Of course, we should also celebrate the fact that we are in a democracy, eight years of democracy, one of the longest in our history. And we should also celebrate the fact that major socio-economic reforms are being implemented, that we have an administration which has been or which has worked very hard to change the way we are perceived internationally, the one that has addressed our image issues, the one addressing corruption issue, the one growing our economy. Nigeria has lived up to its responsibilities among the comity of nations, our external reserves have mounted much more than anytime in our history, there is fiscal responsibility that has been introduced into our economy and all sorts of things such that we have every reason to be proud. We may not have achieved everything we set out to achieve, we may not be where we should be but my contention is that substantial progress has been made and every Nigerian should be happy and should indeed celebrate the fact that our country is on the path of recovery.

That is if somebody in place in 2007 continues the reforms, what is your idea…?

I have always believed that God is a Nigerian and I will want to tow that path. I believe that God has a special interest in our country and I also believe that a patriot, a God-fearing and highly disciplined person would emerge to lead this country to the next level following the footsteps of President Obasanjo. I have no doubt in my mind that God has a special interest in Nigeria and I know that with the way things have been done so far, the only way to go is up and it behoves Nigerians to ensure that we get a leader of the season that can really take us to the next level.

The EFCC chairman granted an interview where he said that he was going to die, I believe that since the administrative panel’s report was released, he has said in more than once that there have been threats to his life… Not only him, even Minister for Special Duties had threats coming from some members of the public and of course I was not deterred. I have to do what I have to do. Even much more recently I have been threatened, even some members of the cabinet, some aides of Mr. President have been threatened because of what some people perceived as their position on the ongoing face-off or strained relationship between the President and the Vice President. But the truth remains that Nigeria does not belong to anybody more than it belongs to me and I’m not cowed, I’m not intimidated, I’m not afraid and God is my ultimate keeper. I have absolute faith in God for protection. But that does not mean that one should not take precautions. But my approach to my job is based on principles, is based on clear caution and on what I think is public interest and I have no problem being the Minister of Information or being the chief spokesperson for government. Those who know me know I’m extremely faithful and loyal person, and the boss is boss, the leader is leader, and I have great respect for him and I will not be cowed from doing my job. But of course the appropriate agencies of government have been duly alerted and they are already taking some measures. It is just that it is necessary that these things are known so that if anything goes wrong we’ll know which direction we look.

Do you think there is any solution to these face-offs aside going to court? The choice of going to court I don’t think it is proper to comment on it now. The matter is subjudiced, so I don’t think it is appropriate to say anything regarding it.

Alright, let us just talk on personalities involved. A lot of people have been wondering about the statements coming up since the strain relationship…

(cuts in) It is a difficult question for me, a question, which I believe is best posed to Mr. President and the Vice President, but I believe what is at stake here is principle and public good. That is what is at stake. It is about principle and the President is very passionate about our country, thus his messianic approach to affairs regarding Nigeria, and he has a singular privilege of spending most of his adult life in the service of Nigeria. So he can understand. I know personally he is prepared to lay down his life to protect our country, to protect our unity and entrench good governance and democracy and to ensure that Nigeria and Nigerians have the right kind of leadership to take her to the next level. Mr President is convinced of course that we are far behind our peers. By 1979 when he left office, Nigeria was the 49th richest nation in the world and by the time he came back 20 years we are now 179. I don’t know the exact figure. Of course it is painful to everybody. And that is all I have to say on that. And of course these are my personal views on the matter but I believe one can hazard a comment on the basis of my interaction with the President.

Considering that the PDP offered all sorts of promises and all of that, now with the coming of the AC which is another mega party, what do you see happening in the coming elections?
My answer to that is that the PDP remains the party to beat, anytime, any day. And I have no doubt that the PDP will win the next election based on the performance of the President and based on the performance of PDP governments across the federation.

You mean with same way after some people left the PDP?The same way some people left other parties to join the PDP! So it is a two-way traffic thing.

But the proportion and the number are not the same

Don’t forget that 28 states of the federation are PDP states.

I mean with most of these governors having questions to answer with the EFCC, don’t you think that gives the room for the AC to move in and move out the PDP?
It is not as simple as that. I don’t believe the EFCC has said these people have not performed well. I believe the statements credited to the EFCC chairman that they may have a case to answer with regard to management of public funds, which to my mind are two different issues. I come from Enugu State, for instance, and I’m in a position to confirm the massive infrastructural developments that have taken place there within the last eight years. We are talking about a brand new campus of university; it is not the kind of things you find anywhere else in the country. It is one of the best in the West Africa sub-region. We are talking about a brand new hospital. These things are there for anyone to see, even if you were blind, by touching the walls tells you this is a new thing; we are talking about a brand new judicial complex, five-thousand capacity international conference centre, we are talking about brand new 200-room hotel and dualised roads. There is so much that has happened there. So you must be able to differentiate between the two issues.

Now you seem to have a passion, and your personality also confirms that the country has a lot of potential to be the greatest in Africa and even beyond, how do you intend to contribute to the future of this country?Well I’m flattered by what you have just said. But one has to thank God for the opportunity that one has had to do the little one has been able to do. But of course I believe it was a competition. I may not have become minister, and I believe that there are a lot of Nigerians out there, who if given the opportunity, will do far, far better. As for me, the post ministership years are very clear on my mind from my own perspective I will go back to Kennedy School, obtain a Ph.D and return to my country. I am very much interested in leadership development, in value orientation particularly of young people. It is something I am so passionate about, because if you have people who have the right mindset, that is one way to build a new generation of leaders in our country. There are types of value orientation, but I am talking exactly about leadership development and character moulding, which are my areas of interest. So that is clearly where my interest is, but of course man proposes and God disposes; I don’t know what the future holds, but from my personal perspective, that is the direction I’m heading and that is what I’m pursuing.



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