Tookie Williams...

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samira

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#42
dupsybabe said:
it isn't about religion here, it is more about human conscience.
It's about human conscience eh?

Life is indeed precious and I wonder what the victims felt and thought when their last breath was snatched away from their murderers. I wonder what it might have been like for the parents and loved ones of the victims. I guess you and I will never know since our feet haven't been into those shoes yet! I am for the death penalty as to me had the death penalty been a real possibility in the minds of these murderers, they might well have stayed their hand. They might have shown moral awarenes before their victims died, and definately not after.

Remember the tragic death of a lady by the name Rosa Velez in Brooklyn, NY? I sure will never forget as it was close to home! NEVER! The guy who shot her said "yes, i shot her in her own home and she sure knew me and I also knew her and I also knew that killing her will not take me to the chair."

Its about time we realize that when we protect guilty lives, we give up innocent lives in exchange.
 
#43
samira said:
It's about human conscience eh?

Life is indeed precious and I wonder what the victims felt and thought when their last breath was snatched away from their murderers. I wonder what it might have been like for the parents and loved ones of the victims. I guess you and I will never know since our feet haven't been into those shoes yet! I am for the death penalty as to me had the death penalty been a real possibility in the minds of these murderers, they might well have stayed their hand. They might have shown moral awarenes before their victims died, and definately not after.

Remember the tragic death of a lady by the name Rosa Velez in Brooklyn, NY? I sure will never forget as it was close to home! NEVER! The guy who shot her said "yes, i shot her in her own home and she sure knew me and I also knew her and I also knew that killing her will not take me to the chair."

Its about time we realize that when we protect guilty lives, we give up innocent lives in exchange.

i see where you are coming from:

so you believe tookie killed those 4 ppl?

and the story you brought up is something different, the person that committed the crime said he really did it so there is nothing to argue about that, the killer already made justice for himself.

i wasn't there while the crimes happened and neither were you, am not saying tookie is innocent or guilty, all am saying is that i am no one to judge him and neither are u. the crime case is something to really look into, there is always two sides to the story, but the one chosen isn't always the right one.
 

kaymax

Well-Known Member
#44
dupsybabe said:
i see where you are coming from:

so you believe tookie killed those 4 ppl?

and the story you brought up is something different, the person that committed the crime said he really did it so there is nothing to argue about that, the killer already made justice for himself.

i wasn't there while the crimes happened and neither were you, am not saying tookie is innocent or guilty, all am saying is that i am no one to judge him and neither are u. the crime case is something to really look into, there is always two sides to the story, but the one chosen isn't always the right one.

Dupsy, that's why we have this little infraction called 'the law'. There has been nothing in his transcript that prove that he did not kill those people. He was tried and judged by a jury (and there does not have to be black people on the jury). Because your jury does not contain people of your race is not grounds for clemency!! You don't have to be there to look at the PROVEN facts, hence the trial itself. He has had 20 years and as we can see, a lot of resources to prove his innocense, it has not been done. The question has never been one of guilt or innocense, it's one of rehabilitation and rehabilitation, in and of itself, is not grounds for clemency. Like I said earlier, let his good works be rewarded in heaven.
 

kaymax

Well-Known Member
#45
samira said:
It's about human conscience eh?

Life is indeed precious and I wonder what the victims felt and thought when their last breath was snatched away from their murderers. I wonder what it might have been like for the parents and loved ones of the victims. I guess you and I will never know since our feet haven't been into those shoes yet! I am for the death penalty as to me had the death penalty been a real possibility in the minds of these murderers, they might well have stayed their hand. They might have shown moral awarenes before their victims died, and definately not after.

Remember the tragic death of a lady by the name Rosa Velez in Brooklyn, NY? I sure will never forget as it was close to home! NEVER! The guy who shot her said "yes, i shot her in her own home and she sure knew me and I also knew her and I also knew that killing her will not take me to the chair."

Its about time we realize that when we protect guilty lives, we give up innocent lives in exchange.

yeah, and where was his human concience when he was forming the most deadly and notorious gang in US? Where was his 'conscience' when he was out robbing, killing, and corrupting these young kids to join his gang? Even the bible says that there are consequeces for our sins.
 
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samira

Guest
#46
dupsybabe said:
i see where you are coming from:

so you believe tookie killed those 4 ppl?

and the story you brought up is something different, the person that committed the crime said he really did it so there is nothing to argue about that, the killer already made justice for himself.

i wasn't there while the crimes happened and neither were you, am not saying tookie is innocent or guilty, all am saying is that i am no one to judge him and neither are u. the crime case is something to really look into, there is always two sides to the story, but the one chosen isn't always the right one.

Who said anything about judging? are you saying that the only time one is accused of murder is when the person actually admits to it? Then what is the use of the court then? What about the victims rights? Its not about me believing anything or me being there. He was found guilty in a court of law based on the evidence that was presented and that is okay by me! Case closed!!!

My own cousin was killed in Norfolk, VA in 1997, together with his Senegal roommate by an American who had commited murder before and being paroled for good behavior. He was released to only killed two more innocent lives. For what? oh, human concience you said before.

Human life deserves special protection, and one of the best ways to guarantee that protection is to assure that convicted murderers do not kill again and as far as I am concerned, only the death penalty can accomplish this end. Look at this other man called Richard Biegewald who as soon he was freed from prison in New Jersey, after serving 18 years for murder, he turned around and commited four other murders. HABA!!
 
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samira

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#47
kaymax said:
yeah, and where was his human concience when he was forming the most deadly and notorious gang in US? Where was his 'conscience' when he was out robbing, killing, and corrupting these young kids to join his gang? Even the bible says that there are consequeces for our sins.
Yep and on judgement day, its either hell or heaven. Then for the sake of "human conscience", God should also pardon those going to hell as to me, hell is even worse than the death penalty and God ought to be kind in that case!
 
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samira

Guest
#48
Multioption said:
Who should forgive him; the dead or the living?

The living! I understand that Tookie may have performed some good deeds while in prison, but the fact remains that he killed 4 people. He deserves to die. Glorifying self-proclaimed reformed criminals serves as no deterrence to the youth gangs roaming the black neighborhoods acting tuff. I am happy that Williams has found God, and reformed in Prison. As that I presume, will come of use when he reaches the Gates of Heaven.
 

kaymax

Well-Known Member
#49
samira said:
Yep and on judgement day, its either hell or heaven. Then for the sake of "human conscience", God should also pardon those going to hell as to me, hell is even worse than the death penalty and God ought to be kind in that case!

CHEI!!!!! In all caps!!! LOL
 
#50
the deed is done, very soon is the time. i can't imagine how he feels right now knowing in 5 or so hrs it is time, i just can't. and the worst is when they are about to inject it in him...............................UNTHINKABLE.
 
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samira

Guest
#51
dupsybabe said:
the deed is done, very soon is the time. i can't imagine how he feels right now knowing in 5 or so hrs it is time, i just can't. and the worst is when they are about to inject it in him...............................UNTHINKABLE.
with you sha...and I know what he is now thinking as he slowly comes to the end of his life: "iIf you take someone's life, you forfeit yours." Now, I can also sit here and only imagine what it felt like when the murders had that gun, knife, hammer or whatever they use to cut of their victims life. UNTHINKABLE.

At least with him, he had the time to come to peace with himself. His victims on the other hand, didn't and that is what is so sad!
 

Multioption

Well-Known Member
#52
samira said:
The living! I understand that Tookie may have performed some good deeds while in prison, but the fact remains that he killed 4 people. He deserves to die. Glorifying self-proclaimed reformed criminals serves as no deterrence to the youth gangs roaming the black neighborhoods acting tuff. I am happy that Williams has found God, and reformed in Prison. As that I presume, will come of use when he reaches the Gates of Heaven.
On what moral ground should the living forgive a crime committed against a person/people who can no longer express themselves?
 
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samira

Guest
#53
Multioption said:
On what moral ground should the living forgive a crime committed against a person/people who can no longer express themselves?
The value of human life!
 
#54
His movie is one of the best of Jamie I've ever seen. I bet Jamie will be sad that the guy never get a second chance or should I say thousandth chance.
 

Multioption

Well-Known Member
#55
samira said:
The value of human life!
Good! So, do the living have legal and moral rights to accept forgiveness on behalf of others, who by viture of transition that resulted from crime commited against them, cannot grant such forgiveness?
 
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samira

Guest
#56
Multioption said:
Good! So, do the living have legal and moral rights to accept forgiveness on behalf of others, who by viture of transition that resulted from crime commited against them, cannot grant such forgiveness?
Are we on the same page? It is by exacting the highest penality for the taking of human life that we affirm the highest value of human life is what i mean.
 
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samira

Guest
#58
Multioption said:
On what moral ground should the living forgive a crime committed against a person/people who can no longer express themselves?
What are your own thoughts on this Multioption?
 

Multioption

Well-Known Member
#59
samira said:
Are we on the same page? It is by exacting the highest penality for the taking of human life that we affirm the highest value of human life is what i mean.
samira said:
What are your own thoughts on this Multioption?
It is stimulating and exciting to get you ask those questions! Granting pardon to murderers have no moral or legal justification given the fact that the victims (dead) cannot forgive/forego of the crime committed against them, so the law has to take its full course. Forgiveness is applicable ONLY when the offended grants it.

So, the question is: Can the dead forgive? We can never know, therefore, the rule of law must take its full course!
 
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samira

Guest
#60
Multioption said:
It is stimulating and exciting to get you ask those questions! Granting pardon to murderers have no moral or legal justification given the fact that the victims (dead) cannot forgive/forego of the crime committed against them, so the law has to take its full course. Forgiveness is applicable ONLY when the offended grants it.

So, the question is: Can the dead forgive? We can never know, therefore, the rule of law must take its full course!

"The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness."

victor hugo
 
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